The repeated dating requests was really one request each from four different people, the one sexual comment mentioned was over the line but not extremely so, and the only concrete penalty mentioned was a missed lunch. The Art of Saying No to Invites When You - SELF This. Some may disagree that laughing is showing interest, but I think we can all consider that its also not an affirmative no, Im not interested, and giving that affirmative no, Im not interested as a response to the initial flirting might head off their advances and save a lot of headaches for OP (for the rest of her career, wherever she works, until this sort of behavior is stamped out for good). She also has a slight case of cerebral palsy that gives her a limp, and my heart grieves when I think of her experiences in school compared to mine. I think the problem is that you did hang out with her before you realized how much she sucks to work with, so anything like "we keep personal and professional separate" will be obvious as a lie. And you never got the Its OK Im not jealous response? Soooo many people dont want to report problems for this reason and end letting the problem hang around unnecessarily, or let the problem get worse. Its exhausting and Im only in my 30s, I cant believe I have to do this for several more decades. From the way she wrote it, it doesnt really seem like shes saying no. I dont know if I picked up this trick here or elsewhere (Im going to give credit to Alison anyway), but the next time someone says something ridiculous to you, just stop and stare and let out a good wow, and walk away. But honestly, it made it hard for me to trust men. I have to admit it makes me feel vindicated, because as an autistic person who so happens to be female the whole but you women give off these COMPLEX SIGNALS and its CONFUSING to the POOR MEN who arent as good at this BODY LANGUAGE thing and cant interpret HINTS and INDIRECT SPEECH as well as women thing gets really, really old. One of the reasons my husband is now my husband is that he showed, right from the first, that my boundaries were important to him. is that even a thing?) Laughing at a joke, asking about your weekend, and generally being a nice person does NOT mean I want to sleep with you. But youre not denying that it happens to people, right? Evo-psych makes easily debunked claims about womens so-called natural role as targets of male gene-spreading, and as such, is part of the structure which upholds the hierarchy. And some of these guys have been your managers?! Didnt create any awkwardness for us at all, and we were able to continue working together as if nothing had happened. 2. To OP I feel for you. Zeetha objected and told him to stop. Alisons right. Scrunched face of slightly disgusted disbelief paired with a head shake works. By doing this, many of the guys left her alone! The thinking is that, this behavior is kind of misdemeanor level professional wrongdoing and going to HR or the big bosses is therefore overkill. Our age, and our life experience / confidence also means that we wont be vulnerable to the pushback that these guys will give to younger women. You have a duty to make sure that work is just for work for yourself and these women. Let him down gently is just a habit like put on your seatbelt for many women. Its honestly infuriating to have the responsibility placed on the woman for a mans jackass behavior. When done well, it is not an uncommon reaction for people to be horrified to find out that their actions are being perceived differently than they expected, or that they were are making life difficult for co-workers without realizing it. He was clear that he was interested in dating. If the woman responds with a direct Im not interested, then all of a sudden it is all in her head and he was never interested in her at all, and she should learn to understand people better. Once told a guy directly, when he hinted, I am not interested in that way. If youre the boss, and you see something inappropriate, I think you have a responsibility to speak up, even if the harass-ee hasnt asked you to. It usually ended with me being accused of thinking too highly of myself and why would I ever believe he was serious? It describes my entire dating experience prior to dating my husband. It can be not so much about hoping the training will actually get them to change, as about handing them the rope so they can hang themselves, so to speak. (Personally, I realized this at 15 when for the first time, I was the only other person in the busy convenience shop with the clerk I had bought my daily mountain dew from for months.) team lead asking me not to join his group for lunch because it would make his ex-girlfriend, who eats with them, unhappy because she knows he likes me.. it gets weird including being professionally punished! Not that there was any chance of Ron strayinghe was the soul of propriety, as far as we knew. Also, HR may have (if other people have talked to them) perspective that the OP might not. Daniel Kline. It wasnt terrible to do. Im TIRED of this. A lot of lesbians or bi women find it to be pretty offensive and seen it as straight women appropriating their identity merely because theyre annoyed with men. Klaus: acknowledged her request and: apologized for making the joke in the first place. Basically dont screw up my job and professional interactions to feel out if I might ever might be interested in screwing. Id rather be single than date a guy who treats his coworkers like they are there for his enjoyment. I work in a smallish department of a medium sized division of a huge company. Same boss, btw, who joked every time when sensitivity and harassment training came around that hed need an intermediate or advanced class to get better at it. Consistently turning down invites without an excuse, not engaging in any non-work chat, and referring the person to places where they can read about how to do something rather than helping them myself really helped me. 5. outright admitting hes treating her differently due to sexual attraction. A good boss will definitely want to know about this. . You have a point of view that differs somewhat from what the majority here are saying, and I think your perspective is valuable, and would have made great fodder for further dialogue. Studies show its easier for attractive people to be hired and that they earn more, I thought. Gee, maybe you should learn how to speak in a straightforward, unambiguous manner such that women do not think you are hitting on them. HOWEVER, thats not whats happening here. Sexual harassment isnt something you put someone on a PIP for or having a gentle talking to over. I dont think they really think so-called bitchy behavior is bitchy; I think more often its just a way to emotionally blackmail women into submissionif you dont do what I want, Ill think youre a bitch despite the fact that on some level, the person using this threat recognizes that the womans position is valid. No formal corrective action needed. You're always the one asking to hang out When you should stop asking her to hang out What you should do if she doesn't want to hang out 1. But lately, I've been working on keeping my work and personal lives separate. a colleague is hitting on me and I don't know how to respond Im so sorry your daughter experienced that. Things like my supervisor telling me I looked hot with my hair up in a ponytail, or a team lead asking me not to join his group for lunch because it would make his ex-girlfriend, who eats with them, unhappy because she knows he likes me. Ooh, I think thats a likely explanation for a lot of it. Wouldnt it be cool if we started training at a young age, as in middle school? Soooo sad that this is a thing, though. Clearly a mixed message because if you like camping you must want to do it with anyone who asks, right? Im not even a lesbian! . At the risk of being accused of MCP tendencies, asking a coworker out if one is attracted to them isnt a huge violation. Thank goodness. He also ordered a ton of food, in a cuisine he hated, refused to eat it, or refused to pay for any of it. They make some people uncomfortable and you need to stop.), The problem is when they treat each instance of Sally telling lewd jokes to unwitting bystanders as its own individual thing and not a pattern of behavior and her willful disregard of previous warnings. Marisol, thank you, you articulated what I was thinking perfectly. St. As far as I know, coffee is like a mini-dateor I prefer to think of it as an overture of friendliness. Not Artemesia.) And someone told her wearing a bikini would piss off the board members wives.. I read either a theory or study years ago about how women are more attracted to men who have a nurturing side, since they needed a partner in child rearing as much as a provider/protector. Ive been here for about a year and Ill probably be leaving for a new job very far away in a few months. If not, at least I know where it stands and dont need to pursue further. My sister is 2&3. Especially when you learn things that hurt people (whether thats self defense tricks or how to shoot a gun), you really do have to think about what youre able to live with after its all said and done. Whether she works in the same organization or not is neither here nor there. Keep communication positive. It kicks the can down the road, but doesnt actually net out, I dont think, to more people with the skills and mindsets to manage themselves well. Big agreement with Alisons point. I am feeling this comment because I was also the weird, ugly, frizzy-haired flat-chested big-nosed girl who got called all sorts of rude things by men. Its inappropriate, to your boss or a partner, it really helps to practice. To some degree tho I dont think we all know what sexual harassment is. Agathas jaw hit the floor. Which, now that I think about it, provided the subliminal lesson of if you dont think you can get away, either be nice or kill him outright.. They may *say* its only flirting, but they are in fact feigning ignorance. I have spent many a night wishing I was pretty enough to be worth sexually harassing because then at least I could get some better experience to parlay into leaving. In reality, youre not going to be stalked, assaulted, or killed for rejecting a date. Yeah, it trivializes how upsetting this has been for the OP. Well, if he had a good woman at home he wouldnt need to sexually harass anyone. Im also concerned that training will be used to paper over any deeper issues going on here I can imagine a situation where everyone watches a terrible video, signs attendance and management washes their hands of the whole situation. If I were humanitys last chance for repopulation, the species would be doomed, anyway! My 5 cents here as a guy. If Im so awkward that I cant have a professional conversation with him, also a problem. Its a real slam to men, as in us men are so incurably dense that you have to explain every little thing to us or we cant possibly process what we see accurately., Not So New, I think youre one of the good ones. I find raising both eyebrows works just as well. Men rarely just directly ask you out. Especially if its part of a pattern. You''ll see that at some point she will get tired and will stop asking. I hate that we still have to discuss it in 2016. Your opinion of the situation is informed by your experience, just like all the other commenters here, and you incisively delineate the difference between your logical understanding of the situation as presented, and your emotional reaction to it. Guys were always calling our house, her cell phone rang all the time basically. Treating a coworker badly after being told No almost definitely is. Not even necessarily to ask if theyre ok just start talking to them, and give them the opportunity for an out without having to get directly confrontational. All posts copyright their original authors. [2] Use "I" statements to communicate how you feel without implying that there's anything with them. They have the training to recognize this for the problem it is, and they understand the legal liability for the company if they dont take it seriously and respond appropriately. The OP is nice and friendly. It is part of the basic catch 22 damned if you do damned if you dont any choice you make is wrong situation women face. Im not going to change my mind years later. Its too subtle to actually fix their behavior. Most companies dont fire people for first offenses unless it was really egregious. I dont know how the hell youd handle it. Repeated, clearly unwanted requests for dates are NOT at all positive. See above, the lovely young woman raised nice, not bitchy. No comment. Please shes not kicking any puppies. It was initially awkward but much less than the discomfort of interacting with the person any more than necessary. Yep. without my income. Management shouldnt skirt uncomfortable conversations by going Oh well theres a couple of bad apples so well just have educational training for the whole office and hope it sinks in (guess what management tactic my current office takes). (Hey, if they want to follow their biological instincts without applying critical thought, then do I get to treat them like animals? Very simple, really. I googled a little and figured out this was a line from the show, but gosh I thought this was just the rudest comment when I first read it. Am I crazy for thinking this is even an issue that needs to be dealt with?. It got back to me on the very next day.). And lets not forget having to prove yourself once you get into a job to demonstrate that you were hired for me than your lookssay, for example, your ability to do a great job. Thats because the type of guy who whines about the first no also whines (even louder) about the you know, Im glad we went on one date to get to know each other better, but I dont think its a connection and Im not interested in a second. If somebody seems mature, I can risk leading him on for one date. 10 Simple Ways to Decline a Date from a Coworker - wikiHow Eventually, if she gets absolutely no traction, she will stop asking you to hang out because she knows the answer will be no. So I dont know if it is legal harassment, but it could certainly be detrimental to OPs career. But you don't even have to do that. I agree with you that theres nothing in the letter to indicate shes young or attractive. He was strangely reassured by my reaction me looking as though I was having a difficult time keeping my lunch down for a moment. Boo.). I found it so effective and it really trained my brain to be more successful in all difficult conversations, even the ones that came up spontaneously that I couldnt practice in advance. What worked for me for consistency. A telling moment for me in this vein was when a customer asked me out, and I thanked him politely but declined. One comment I found helpful was to say, If someone was talking to your mother/sister/girlfriend/niece the way you are talking to me now, what would you say to them?. Sadly, its not a boogeyman, and those types of people are out there: https://mic.com/articles/135394/14-women-were-brutally-attacked-for-rejecting-men-why-arent-we-talking-about-it#.b1a48FWvs. Seriously. Years of self-defense classes came into play, and in a few seconds, I had stomped on his foot, turned around and kneed him where it would hurt the most, while screaming my head off. Then roles would switch, and you would be you, and the friend/coach would be the other person, and you could try out your new script that you just observed. He wasnt super good-looking, just pleasantly average. Women absolutely get harassed for rejecting a date > **like the OP just detailed**. I just found the theory interesting and think it makes sense. I had 15 minutes to gather my stuff and leave. Maybe even make plans with her to have drinks or something later. WHYYYYY can it not be like this all the time!?! It seemed so much easier just to be upfront and honest with guys, and that usually worked out pretty well for both people I did and did not want to date (though I never really went out with the thrill-of-the-chase type people either). I because I am a certain kind of angels-fear-to-tread-be-damned kind of person DO shut them down when it is unwelcome for whatever reason (inappropriate work contact, disgusting, whatever) but I can assure you, I am nearly alone in that in my circle. This is just good ole fashioned flirting, in their minds but theyre completely overlooking the power dimensions at play here and how this makes an employee or coworker feel. I dont think its likely Ill get in a bad car accident every time I go out, particularly if Im just driving less than a mile to the store. If there is chemistry and shes interested, thats nice. No, I would not like to be the inspiration for next weeks episode of CSI Miami! Id really, really like to blame youth. In my 20s, my first job out of college, I had about 5 guys flirt and ask me out in the first 6 months I was at that company. And in particular, it sounds like your company needs to do a much, much better job of training managers and making it clear they cant make sexually tinged comments or ask out or otherwise come on to people whom they have authority over (ick). (Lets call the sister Zeetha.). Im really curious to learn what others know about this. I drove to work on a snow day when most of the office chose to stay home, and at 5:45 pm, the manager called me into his office and said that they were letting me go because I wasn't a good fit. Though I admit, on occasion, it was easier to get hired; but for the wrong reasons. Even if a personal relationship might be welcome. She's unorganized, doesn't communicate well, has no sense of deadlines, is technically inept, and is always asking me to do things for her that she should be able to do herself. Copyright 2007 - 2023 Ask A Manager. that it barely occurred to me that he should have known better. Whenever you like someone, you always want to be around them, right?. Not at work thankfully. I may not go to great lengths to point out my errors, but if a supervisor asks me, did you do xyz task? and I forgot to do it, I will tell them that I forgot, apologize, and get to the task. And men are perfectly capable of distinguishing between the two in a real conversationthey just choose to ignore the signal. So dating a harasser is a win for everyone! I responsed Because I dont need to give him a reason for saying no. Its a matter of having them know when to not act on it, though. They dont say it like think about it, because you have to live with it later. Ok, now I need something to lift my spirits up. And really, some people in the scenarios youve described should get in some trouble. Everyones recording a goodbye. I really dont know him, I only came to say hello to my friend. Yeah. Well talk to him. You explained yourself very well. Depends on the field. I cant work with Sally my wife wouldnt approve. Ok when was the last time a woman was killed for turning a guy down for a date in the workplace? Carl, did you really just say that? Accidents are reasonably likely, even if serious ones are relatively rare. coworkers!) I would probably change asking to telling as a manager, there are going to me a lot of times when you need to say something for the good of the company and the overall environment, even if your employee would prefer it be dropped. my coworkers keep talking to me when I'm trying to work - Ask a Manager If you have been planning to ask them for a while, don't come on too strong. Im NOT saying that OP should just suck it up or shouldnt take steps to remedy the problem for the next woman that might end up in her shoes at that company. People (especially women) often try to lighten their "no" because they feel rude. (Thats just so obviously inappropriate!) A group of high schoolers get it. My parents raised a genuinely nice girl and discouraged bitchy behavior. You know whats particularly shitty about this type of situation? Like, not just the handful of women who brought charges, but it sounds like he had hit on nearly every woman at the CBC at some point or other. I get so angry that this is still happening in 2016. And that the damage this sort of shit does is the reason WHY coveting qualifies in the top ten. You deserve better. This sounds like a combination of three things: 1. If you don't already know where the nearest happy hour is, find out. No? Unfortunately, you dont always know how your boss might react even if they do come across as someone who would want to know about it; what people say and what they do when it comes to these types of issues are often two different things. Some people think women saying no are being bitchy. update: is my job the problem or is it me. Its was very funny to me to watch a guys jaw drop when me and my gray hair would walk over to bail out a younger coworker. She might be snooty to you. She said Lavender treated her very coolly from day one (coworker was indeed pretty and considered quite attractive there). Especially with the entitlement aspect. And it doesnt require other women to face the same treatment in order to be actionable. He sent her a text, it upset her, and I made sure she reported it. My point was that while women pay a professional penalty for being women in the workplacewhether they are limited by an excess or a deficit of male attentionunattractive women perceive that we bear an additional social penalty as well in all settings, which is why this sample size of 1 has not always reacted as supportively as I wish I had when other women shared stories of harassment. They shouldnt treat it like a cat needing a reminder not to scratch the couch, however. Mostly they just give up after one message, but some of them really go off on me for not responding to them. It is 100% not right, but, for people that need a job and know they arent working in a supportive environment, I can see how the decision to report is difficult. Avoiding, leaving out of meetings, spreading gossip not okay. Eh, that may be true on some instinctive level, but given the magnificent lengths humans will go to overcome various other instinctive behaviors and in other ways use our giant critical-thinking-y brains, Ive rarely seen evolutionary psychology used as anything other than an excuse for not using higher brain functions in this specific case because it would mean not getting to whine about not getting laid. Frequently, we are trying to be diplomatic in the response. That was one of the reasons I got out of the restaurant business; I looked realistically at who got promoted and knew that I wasnt in that group. She doesnt need to ask him to stop making personal comments about her appearance, ESPECIALLY since hes a supervisor. Yup yup yup. There is a certain subset of guys who take it as a challenge. On both ends of the spectrum. You know theres a lot of women who are burned out from getting hit on, so this would be a good skill for you to develop.. I was harassed in a hotel bar last year and I very calmly took the mans arm off my shoulder and said I do not feel like being hugged by strangers tonight. I was so amazed that those calm, clear, direct words were what came out of my mouth at the time, but then I realized that after a workplace boob-grabbing incident in my 20s, I had made a habit of visualizing how I would deal with various other types of harassment. Similar situation here. It took a while for us to convince him that his normal work behavior actually did have the potential to make many people uncomfortable. Reminders? Talking to the guy without asking the harassee first could cause issues. Its still all about the power, and even younger women who stand up for themselves will be seen (by these guys) as not having enough power to make a difference. Some people only see the light after theyve been spotlighted. OPs letter reminded me of that. Say you understand and harbor no ill feelings. By writing positive attention, I meant things that could be perceived as pleasant *if* they were wanted attentionscompliments and so on. It was something like an anthropological/linguistic study that demonstrated this. Im almost 50, and when I look back on the garbage I tolerated when I was young, this was so often the reason. Like, eat lunches, take a coffee break together, that sort of thing. oh. Even then, I think there are exceptions. Its more likely that shes laughing off the hints, because she knows that actually saying NO will have repercussions. my coworkers keep asking me out Ask a Manager This is way, WAY more satisfying than the time I screamed GODDAMNIT DONT TOUCH ME! at the top of my lungs, prompting people to run out of their offices to find out what was wrong only to find my boss standing next to me, looking at his hands (which were still just above my shoulders where hed decided to give me a surprise massage) like they had mutinied and gone off and done that thing on their own. I think what youre discounting here is that most women have had more than one experience of turning down a guy and having him become really aggressive in response. Ask yourself how you would react to a guy who said Im going to exclude Joe from some of our team meetings because my GF doesnt approve of tattoos. And then ask yourself how you would react if he said that it was because of his EX-gf. I second this ideapractice like that is always a good idea, even for things like difficult conversations you need to have. The worst experience for me personally was a serious case of sexual harassment (I had to quit immediately without notice) by a boss, who was also a teacher at my last course at university. The supervisors hair comment was out of line, and the team lead wanting to use you to piss off his ex thats major a-hole territory. I get what you are saying, but 2 and 3 are irrelevant even if they are true and I think you a disservice to women by including it, but a lot of us women who have dealt with sexual harassment dont get taken seriously because either we should expect it as the price of admission for being pretty and/or young or we should be flattered because we arent pretty or young. every single time. I agree! @Rusty: I believe the conversation was about hobbies, and she said she enjoyed camping and then he jumped right to alone in the woods for several days would be a great first date!. However, there's eventually going to be a point where I'm finally able to manage my time and will want and be able to go out with my friendsor, more importantly, other coworkers. Look how many contenders there are for horrible bosses of the year just from people who write to Alison those people arent doing the right things for their employees and many of them do think people need to suck it up, stop tattling, work it out yourselves, etc. Theyre ex and that should be enough. 11 Habits Toxic Coworkers Have In Common To Watch Out For In - Bustle What you seem to miss is that these requests come from the same place that the behavior to Invisible comes from. Do you think they put that in news reports? Which was nice, as I had somehow managed to break the guys foot while stomping on it, and they were helpful in getting him to the hospital. What about things that fall in that grey area? Im curious too hear opinions about this. If you've noticed that team communication or scheduling issues have become a source of discontent, check out When I . Theyre willing to understand and accept the soft no. No risqu jokes in the break room. Instead, find out the true facts of the situation. As some you know, I volunteer with a local to me science fiction convention. Ugh. Its more of a hey, I think youre cool, can we know each other better? gesture. Managements response to this is unbelievably cavalier. . Im not so sure theres a lot of grey area herewhat sort of things would fall into that category for you? Ill ask again in a few days.. Thats not the case with a co-worker who asks you out and is able to take no for an answer and behave normally afterward. You FIRE people over it. But even if it were true, Id like to think we humans have evolved to the point where we arent led solely by our baser instincts. Thats just incredibly bad judgement, even if potential sexual harassment were not in the picture. Its not. Whether they are identifiable or not, you can make the conversation around the environment and that the company needs to do a better job at educating folks.
